IWS RADIO #09 | Migration & Mental Health: Creating Support Networks For Women

Lucía Muriel was born in Ecuador. She is a graduate in psychology and has advanced training in industrial, occupational and organizational psychology. She is also a psychotherapist with a therapeutic focus on trauma, migration and violence. She is an activist for social justice for migrants and refugees in strengthening their participation and self empowerment. For many years now, she has been one of the leaders in the debates on political work towards anti racism, emancipation, gender empowerment, decolonization in education, and public spaces. She works as a freelancer in the fields of conflict management, change management as a coach and as a lecturer. She is the author of „Die (bundesdeutsche) eine-Welt aus einem Guss?“ from 2014.

Jasmin Eding was born and raised in Bavaria. She is a social pedagogue. She has been active in the Black movement for over 30 years and is a co-founder of Adefra e.V., Black women in Germany, which was also founded in Munich. She is the co-author of the book, „Kinder der Befreiung“, edited by Marion Kraft and published in 2016 by the Unrast Verlag. She writes about transatlantic experiences and perspectives of Black Germans of the post-war generation and contributes to a milestone in literature about the manifold history of Black Germans. The book has now been translated into English.

JENNIFER
Hello and welcome everyone to our ninth podcast of IWS radio. I’m Jennifer and I am also here with Denise. Today, we will be speaking of mental health, mental illness, isolation and torture, and how we can create a support network for migrant and refugee women living in the Lagers. Welcome.

We would like to start this program by playing some clips from the Corona Lager reports. We started this project during the first lockdown in order to share the voices of women living in the Lagers and how they are experiencing the pandemic. We have three clips. Let’s listen to them, shall we?

 

[AUDIO: Corona Lager Reports]

 

DENISE
We have just listened to a short clip of the Corona Lager reports. So far we have collected around 36 reports and they are all available on our website, iwspace.de.

It’s important to say that one of the issues that women keep mentioning in this reports is mental health: how women living already in isolation in the camps in refugee camps, and now also keeping with this double isolation that came with the pandemic. We have been seeing these are issues that are never addressed and in this program today we would like to understand how we can deal with mental health, what we can offer, what women are needing, and how can we make the situation of asylum seeking women living in refugee camps visible?

JENNIFER
Yes, when women are experiencing depression, like it was we had in the last audio report, or having difficulty with mental health, instead of providing support, often the police are engaged in ways that only lead to more violence. Now, with this Corona pandemic and the second lockdown, we see that women in the Lagers are facing a double isolation. And by a double isolation, we always mean that the Lagers are always situated very far away from any social amenities. Then now with the lockdown, this makes it a double way of isolation, which only worsens mental health situations of women. That was the reason we decided to have a discussion on this topic.

LUCÍA
Okay, so today we are very happy to have here Lucía Muriel and Jasmin Eding to have this conversation around mental health and how we can improve the possibilities of supporting women living in refugee camps.

DENISE
I will introduce Lucía now: Lucía Muriel was born in Ecuador. She is a graduate in psychology and has advanced training in industrial, occupational and organizational psychology. She is also a psychotherapist with a therapeutic focus on trauma, migration and violence. She is an activist for social justice for migrants and refugees in strengthening their participation and self empowerment. For many years now, she has been one of the leaders in the debates on political work towards anti racism, emancipation, gender empowerment, decolonization in education, and public spaces. She works as a freelancer in the fields of conflict management, change management as a coach and as a lecturer. She is the author of „Die (bundesdeutsche) eine-Welt aus einem Guss?“ The title is a question: „Die (bundesdeutsche) Eine-Welt aus einem Guss?“ from 2014.

DENISE
Jasmin Eding was born and raised in Bavaria. She is a social pedagogue. She has been active in the Black movement for over 30 years and is a co-founder of Adefra e.V., Black women in Germany, which was also founded in Munich. She is the co-author of the book, „Kinder der Befreiung“, edited by Marion Kraft and published in 2016 by the Unrast Verlag. She writes about transatlantic experiences and perspectives of Black Germans of the post-war generation and contributes to a milestone in literature about the manifold history of Black Germans. The book has now been translated into English.

And we appreciate that it has been translated into English because there is so much good literature done in Germany by feminist women or women with all this biography that never reach women that has just arrived and cannot yet understand the language and with such books – so thank you, Jasmin, for that. And thank you Lucía, for all this work you’ve done.

DENISE
We will start now with Lucía.

LUCÍA
Yes I am listening to you … Thank you very much. And welcome.

DENISE
Lucía, you mentioned to us that you visit Doberlug-Kirchhain every month. Could you tell us, please, a little bit more of this work you have been doing there and what you have observed regarding the mental health of women in the Lagers, the refugee shelters? And also, how do you see the system dealing with mental health in the asylum context?

LUCÍA
Well, I should tell you that I go there once a month. When I go there I meet especially the translators – the migrant worker in this asylum Heim and this Lager. Almost all of them are migrants also. Most of them were asylum seekers some years ago, and now they work for translation to take care of the asylum seekers now in this Lager. Why I go there is to enhance the sensibility of them and also to talk about their stress. They suffer a lot of stress also, and so that they can stay strong enough to work there every day with the stress and the pressure.

But what I see is that these translators are also migrants. They lost a lot of their compassion – this is what I observed. And so my work is also to strengthen their emotional system so they can come back to their own compassion, you know, their own compassion levels, in a way. Always when we talk about the person living in the Lager, the asylum seekers, often or almost always, they talk about the violence, especially among the men. They almost don’t talk about women’s situation. This is very interesting because I asked them often, how are the families? How are the women? How they feel and so on, but they don’t talk much about the women – much more about violent situation with men.

What I feel also is that the others, the German workers of this Lager in Doberlug-Kirchhain, they show a high level of rejection towards refugees – especially towards men. Not that much against the women. But they are irritated in the way that they say, so why they come? Why they are here? Why they don’t go back? They should go back and not stay here. This is one of the main point I would like to work out is the lack of compassion in this Lager and among the workers there.

DENISE
Thank you, Lucía, and it’s very interesting how you pointed out the question of the invisibility of the women because the International Women* Space works exactly on the on this direction: to make the lives of women living in these Heims also visible. Do you have an opinion from your experience and your observation, why it seems that the refugees, in general, are seen as a group of men whereas women are so invisible – even for these workers that do the translation. And when you mention the lack of compassion, why is this never directed to the women? What is the reason behind that?

LUCÍA
Yes, I think that women learned if they get, for example, aggressive or violent or if they get loud – if they show emotions and their feelings and so on, I think that they would be seen more than a threat for the others because in the mind ???.

So, the women have to be quiet, they have to be in their rooms, they have to be in a way silent. This is the expectation towards them. When a man gets aggressive or violent, this is almost accepted – and expected also. This makes the situation much more difficult for women because no one will pay them attention if they show their fear or their stress. This is what I think it has to do with it. Women should not show their anger, anger. Yes. This is one of the main problems in this situation.

The workers in Doberlug-Kirchhain, they have very, very much to do. So they pay more attention to the males, who get aggressive and violent, and they almost forget the women. This is one thing I observed: if there is one woman, for example, who gets depressed and she cannot take care of her own child one day or two days because of the depression – they get very angry towards her. So she’s a mother, she should do what she must do for the child but she doesn’t do it. This is the stress also for women.

DENISE
It’s very interesting because this is how society, in general, is and of course, in such situations, it just gets to the extreme. We can talk a little bit more about it later – your work with the people that are there doing the translation – and how we could change the situation and bring the women to a point where they feel the courage also to be visible and to make their voices heard. We will pass now to my colleague, Jennifer.

JENNIFER
Yes, thank you, Lucía for your input.

Now I have a question for Jasmin. As one of the founders of Adefra, maybe you can explain to the listeners what Adefra is about and how you came to form Adefra, what is your concern around mental health?

JASMIN
First of all, Adefra was founded more than 30 years ago in Munich. It began with Audre Lorde. Audre Lord is the African American writer, poet, author, who unfortunately died a long time ago. And she came to Germany because of health issues and she said,„Where are the Black women here?“ I know there must be Black woman here in terms of our history: after the second World War, many blacks came to Germany. Where are they?

So then she met, while she was teaching at a university, some Black women. She encouraged them to write a book about the situation of Black women in Germany. The book is „Farbe Bekennen“ / Showing Our Colors. It’s also translated into English. That’s how it all became. Because back then, we grew up very isolated. We had no community. But then we started to come together, talking about our issues and realized we are together now. There’s a possibility to do more, to raise more awareness of racism, which we are facing everyday in school, in universities, in the workplace, everywhere in the streets.

Therefore, we decided we need to form an organization to fight against all of this. But most of all, we wanted to create a platform where Black women can come together and speak about their experience and to help each other, support each other – create a space of empowerment. It’s more than 20 years ago and we are still around.

Mental health is especially important for me because I am coming from the health field, I am a massage therapist. I met a lot of women, sick women, while I was working as a social worker in a shelter for homeless women, and then I worked in a Lager also in Munich. And so I realized that our health system is not quite suitable for the women there because our health system has no idea about where women come from, with which kind of issues they had to deal. They have no idea about their life situations.

When I was working at Refugio, this is like a center for refugees who are traumatized, I began to learn more about this issue. Since then, I am very interested in how we can support women, especially in the Lagers to deal with the situation. Right now, with this pandemia and living in the Lager exposed to all of this and sometimes they can’t even leave the Lager, causes an enormous stress and fear.

I think it’s very important that we need to support women and try to take some of the fears away. I mean, we can’t take the fear away and we can’t take the fear of deportation away. But I think it is important that we help the women, you know, facing this issue and dealing with the fear, you know. The fear is there but how you handle the fear is important. So, I think there are quite some options how to help, in little steps, the women to deal with the situation or make it a little less fearful for them.

JENNIFER
Thank you, Jasmin. There is also the issue of when Black women are in pain then they are not believed by the doctors. And the issue, for example, what Lucía was mentioning that a woman in the Heim is suffering from depression and she cannot take care of her child. And then she’s condemned. We see in these processes of asylum, that we there is no provision for the mental health situation. Is this the same situation that you also faced when you were only a very small minority of a Black community?

JASMIN
Yeah, we always faced this kind of situation. But back then, we didn’t know where to go, what to do. But only then when we started to talk about our life situations and about what was going on, it was clear for us that the system we are dealing with, the health system, it’s marginalizing us. They have no idea.

For instance, racism was never an issue in the mental health system. Still today in the universities, in school, racism is not a subject, it’s not on the agenda. So therefore, in the mental health system, nobody paid attention, which is why, for instance, this woman has depression or a panic attack and they never understood. Every day stress and every day having to deal with racism and other discrimination forms like sexism, maybe one day it’s just enough for the body and soul, and women get depression, psychosis, or other health problems.

JENNIFER
Thank you women for your input. We take a short break by listening to a song that Lucía chose. I would like Lucía to say something short about the song and you give the name of the song because I cannot pronounce it. It’s Mercedes … Sosa.

LUCÍA
Mercedes Sosa. This is the name of the singer. She’s an Argentine singer with indigenous roots. She is one of our greatest and beloved singers in South America, in the Caribbean, wherever we speak Spanish. She was also persecuted during the fascist dictatorship in Argentina in the 1970s and 80s. And she also had to leave Argentina. She went to France and had to ask for asylum there. When she came back to Argentina when it was possible again for her to return, she wrote this song, „Sólo le pido a Dios“ (I only ask God). This song is dedicated to my ??? and migration. So in a way she talks about the hard moments migrants have to pass when they go to a strange foreign culture.

 

[SONG: Mercedes Sosa – Sólo le pido a Dios (Con León Gieco)]

 

DENISE
Lucía, what a great choice of music. When we were listening to Mercedes Sosa here, I was remembering that when my mother came to visit me in Germany, the first time more than a decade ago, I said Sosa made a concert in the Philharmonie and we went to see it. Were you there? You were there, too?! So you saw this marvelous concert?

LUCÍA
I was there. So fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. It was great.

DENISE
But back then to our issue of our conversation, we would like to to ask both of you and we can start with you Lucía, why do you think there is a stigma around mental health, especially women and mental health?

LUCÍA
Yes, this is a very good question. I was thinking a long time about this question. I think that this society in which we live here in Germany has a very close concept of community. This we see very clear now in the pandemic situation. Their sense of solidarity is limited almost only to their own family. They are in solidarity with their own family but the sense and the concept of solidarity and compassion and interest of community is very low.

So then the stigma has exactly to do with this: the lack of services, of experiences, and of compassion with migrant women has to do with this concept. So, I want to see that my mother is fine but that there are migrant women in my neighborhood or in a small Lager or houses – it definitely has nothing to do with me, nothing to do with my family.

I think this is not part of emotional education in this society: all things like sharing sufferings, sharing pain also. This is not part of the emotional education in the family. So often, the migrants, the asylum seekers disappear because they would like to make them disappear – also the pain of the asylum seekers. They don’t want to see it. They want to make them disappear, the asylum seekers, and also the pain of asylum seekers to disappear.

This makes it difficult to work: this stigma around mental health. For them, it is like thinking, they come from outside because they wanted to come here. So now they should go through hard times, hard lessons. They should go through hard moments because they wanted to come here, so they choose to come here. So please now take the rest and the rest is not difficult. It’s not easy to go. So they make it you know, a part of a strange, different world. It has nothing to do with me. And I hope that I could explain it in my words. We must sensitize this society in this direction but it is not that easy and it takes a lot of time.

DENISE
It’s very interesting what you just said. It’s sort of a transfer of guilt, “you choose to come here, now you have to cope with it. And if you cannot cope, you should stay silent, because we are not responsible for the choice you’ve made.”

Once again, another [form of] isolation – and the word that you used also: disappear. We also observe that there is an intention that the pain disappears because the person should not even be here. But once you are, please disappear. And also the other aspect you mentioned that is super important: the idea of solidarity stays within the family. And it’s not extended to other communities, and especially communities where we are talking about nonwhite people. Yeah, we observe that too. So we agree with you.

JASMIN
A very good point that you made Lucía.

I also think the stigma around mental health has also to do – because here in this society mental illness does not meet the standard, you have to be normal to fit in. And it’s a deviant behavior that is not tolerated by society. Especially women, if they suffer from mental illness, many consider them as crazy. So I think women suffer more from this stigma.

I also think that the society in general doesn’t know enough about mental health. There needs to be more education and awareness raising, what it means and where it comes from. Because mental illness is often caused by life events, or overload and excessive demands from the outside.

What I experienced also is, in some belief systems, mental illness is caused, obviously what they say, is caused by the devil, possession from evil spirits. And this makes for many prejudices and the stigma around mental illness. Though I think, I am not sure, but I think in some societies or cultures there is no word for mental illness. They don’t name it like this.

JENNIFER
Yeah, this is very true, how you have put it, you’ve put it very well.

And it also comes back again to us as migrant women. This aspect, you mentioned that it’s your fault that you’ve come here, it’s your problem that you’ve come here, so just disappear. We don’t want to feel anything from you. It takes a lot of work to wake the consciousness of the society.

In the situations, for example, of the refugees, this is made more difficult. The asylum process is very complicated. And it gets more complicated when there is a demand to have the public health situation of the lockdown, bearing in mind that it creates challenges for the women living in the heim.

One, with the quarantine, the women are completely isolated because after every 48 hours you have to be in these shelters. If you’re not, then they demand that you do a quarantine, that you start a quarantine. So it’s a control mechanism that after every 48 hours. So you cannot even visit your friends, you cannot break the isolation and visit your friends. If they come back and realize that you are away, then you’re put in quarantine, like in a way of punishment. But they do not bear in mind that even outside they don’t respect the fact that someone has the freedom of movement.

And then there is also the challenge that inside these structures, the internet, something very basic like internet, is a problem in these heims. So they are also excluded from the world – the social world – because then the internet that they have to get is very limited. They have to work with very limited internet.

And this brings the question of the whole perspective of isolation, having in mind also the isolation of women in the prisons. What does the isolation do to us? How does it affect us mentally, bearing in mind that even in the prisons there is isolation, the women in the Lagers are facing isolation, and the people that are forced to go into quarantine, this isolation that was compulsory. How does it affect the mental health of women?

Maybe I start with you, Jasmin and then you continue from where you started.

JASMIN
Yes, it can affect mental health immensely, because this situation, it’s like you said, it’s like imprisonment. They felt like in a prison. It can also trigger some traumatic experiences the woman had before of violent situations and the feelings of powerlessness, having no possibility to exert influence. It could cause psychosomatic diseases like heart problems, asthma, fibromyalgia, headaches and much more, but also, depression, panic attacks and psychosis.

This situation can really cause a re-traumatizing of what women experienced before. And I think the stressed situations in the Lager cause a rise in conflict and violence, especially, if there are men involved, then I think, it’s even more traumatic. Women get more traumatized.

JENNIFER
The part of the conflicts in the lager – when these situations of conflict arise, then again, they project how violent we are because of the areas we come from. So again, as a result of the isolation and mental health and conflicts arising, then again, the consequences of that, which is conflicts within the Lager system, then again, it comes back to us. We are to blame for everything.

JASMIN
Blaming the victim.

JENNIFER
Yeah. The victim, again, is blamed for a certain behavior.

JASMIN
Yeah. And I think not providing even internet. Yeah, this is really, I mean, it’s a human right, you know, to have the right to communicate. If they really take this away, or don’t provide the Lager with this…It’s unbelievable.

JENNIFER
Yeah. Thank you so much.

DENISE
Just to take on this, the internet, because one of the issues in the beginning of the pandemic that we were really concerned about was also that… What about our families that stayed in countries where the pandemic was not under control? Where there was no lockdown, or measures taken. And then as migrants, well for us women who can travel, let’s say, we could go to our countries of origin, we could not go because people were not being able to travel. So we were worried with our family members, friends in these countries.

For the record, the women in the asylum process, there was no way to go anyway because you cannot go away from Germany while you are in the asylum. But then you don’t have even the internet to communicate with your family, and to know how they are dealing. So this adds another another dimension of stress, of paranoia, of depression because you cannot leave the Lager to go to a cafe or anywhere, to get the internet, to communicate with your family. So it’s torture, it’s isolation on the level of torture.

What do you say about that Lucía, especially because you come from Latin America, where as you mentioned, when you were describing the music of Mercedes Sosa, many people had to seek asylum, including Mercedes Sosa, because of the dictatorships there. And there isolation was not the torture itself – it was more physical torture. But in Germany, we heard that in the 70s, isolation was the form of torture. So, how do we put this all together with the pandemic, with the isolation in the heims, how do you see that?

LUCÍA
The pandemic situation, indeed, increases this emotional pressure, psychological pressure, much, much more in a very high dimension. This is right and I agree, what you did say before. What I think is that, as you told this, this setting to stay at home, to be forced not to go out, not to leave even the room or the flat, is similar to torture settings. This, like all torture, you know, leads us to loss of confidence.

So this is a very hard moment because you need to talk to someone. You need an atmosphere of, in a way of friendship, of having small talks with the other women, or conversations with other asylum seekers. But in this moment, so comes this pandemic situation, and it leads much more to loss of confidence because there are so many measures to control, to pressre you into much more stress.

This is what I was experiencing in the last month when I went to Doberlug-Kirchhain. That there, women had to suffer. For example, I was told about some women, they couldn’t or cannot sleep during the night. Sometimes they started to cry, or they wanted to go out, or they started to shout even. And because they are women – they should not do it. So, in these moments, no one came to them and offered a little conversation.

Sometimes, these translators, they told me, yeah, I went to her and I asked her why she’s crying, but she’s lying. So, it comes small, they make these experiences – they are not believed, you know. In general, they are not believed, even when they have a headache or a stomachache, or when they have difficulties during the menstruation. So, they are not believed. They can go to doctors, but even [the doctors] have doubts about it.

So, there is a very big loss of confidence and in this atmosphere it is very difficult to say to the women, “Hey, talk to each other, make some small groups for talking, for conversation.” They need it and they should have these spaces. They should have safe spaces to talk and to exchange experiences but it’s very difficult. They often cannot accept it and reduce even this communication among the women. Now this is the situation I experienced. Very, very hard, really.

DENISE
Yes, absolutely. We agree with you, we observe that too.

Now, I think it’s a good time to take another break. And we are going to play a song suggested by Jasmin, which is Mr. Bojangles by Nina Simone. Jasmin what does this music mean to you?

JASMIN
Nina Simone. She was also a fighter, in the United States, and she had to leave the country. She also suffered from mental health issues, and which, you know, which was not so known. But she was facing so much violence, racism, and domestic violence, that I think it was too much for her. So she was one of the women suffering from mental illness. I like her music. She was such a strong woman against all odds. She was, yeah, powerful, despite everything.

 

[SONG: Nina Simone – Mr. Bojangles]

 

JENNIFER
Wow. Yeah. Nina Simone. She’s powerful, she was powerful. Her songs have power. And somehow, with her history also, and how much she has impacted, as a female singer in this industry. I can imagine what she had to fight to be who she is – who she became. Thanks for the choice of the song, Jasmin.

Now, we have heard a lot from both of you, on the input about mental health. What we would like to end our topic for today is: how can we strengthen our self-organization to better support one another, as women, on mental health issues? Maybe I start with you, Jasmin.

JASMIN
I think it’s not only important to strengthen our organizations regarding mental health. Also psychosocial care is important, and it belongs together. I think it’s important to identify allies, who are also working intersectionally and to have meetings.

Always, what is really important, what you always need is money. So, there are so many foundations out there. I think it’s important also, to get the support from outside, from the States because many of them are causing these problems. So they need to pay so that we can work on this.

Also, I think we need to train Multiplikatorinnen, I don’t know how it is in English here. So that we continue [to multiply what we learned], so what we learned will grow like a snowball, so that the radius becomes bigger and bigger. And if we are big and strong, we have more influence. But first of all, I think we need to identify and look for organizations, allies, who also have the same intention and are working intersectionally to help migrant women refugees.

JENNIFER
Yeah. That’s very important to strengthen the [notion of] multiplicators – multiplicators training. Yeah? That’s what you meant? We always talking about going away for one weekend out of the city to have these kind of intense trainings about self-care. And this is very important. Thanks, Jasmin.

JENNIFER
Lucía, what would be your input on this question: how we can support, how we can strengthen our self-organization and support one another as women on mental health issues?

LUCÍA
Yes, first of all, I agree with Jasmin. This is very right. There is a significant lack of services structures, especially when we go outside of Berlin, for example. Then there, you cannot find anyone really in the services structures.

Almost 15 years ago, I worked in Brandenburg in a project that [aimed to] strengthen the services for the traumatized asylum seekers. I went to every Lager in Brandenburg, always, once or twice a month. That’s why I know the situation, the local situation indeed.

In that time, what I did with two or three colleagues, we went to the Lager and made some conversation groups or conversation afternoons. So we sit down with all the people from the Lager together, and we asked them very simply: How are you? You know, this is so simple, this question. But what was the result was that the person finally could, sometimes for the first time after years, tell what was happening to them, what was wrong, what was good, why they feel bad, why they feel sick, alone or depressed, whatever.

Of course, we saw that, for example, there are a lot of difficult psychological situations, some of them you had mentioned before. For example, addiction to alcohol, or to tablets, to pharmaceuticals, and so on. So, sometimes it was the first time they could show us the amount of pharmaceutical products they consumed everyday in order to sleep, to be quiet, to be silent and so on. So the situation, indeed, is very difficult, very hard from what I could experience.

To start, I think this very important resource of support groups, care groups, and self-care groups, we, the professionals, should support this and [support] the other person, and we should really qualify them with multiplikators as Jasmin told before.

This is a big work, this is a great step, but we should start with it. We should start with it – with small steps. Because we cannot let the person stay in that desolate situation [anymore]. Also, I think we could, for example, my contribution and for many, many years, to this situation is to give free therapy and advices. But, of course, the capacities are limited for everyone. But if every psychologist could, offer one or two places for therapy or advices, that would help also to start.

It would also help to gain more knowledge and more experiences. But also we need groups. For example, for this professionals, we need groups for supervision, for example, and this professional exchange to support all the other steps. This is what I think.

JASMIN
Yeah, and I want to add, for instance, the project I’m working on, I’m using the structures. Our organization is helping traumatized torture survivor refugees. And sometimes, from women clients, I hear about a friend of theirs that also needs help.

Even if I can’t take them in our project, you know, I can use the structures. I can give them addresses, I can provide them with important information. Sometimes, I’m using my position as a door opener for other organizations or bureaucratic things to help the women. I saw on your website, our organization is not mentioned so maybe you can mention them. I can give you my telephone number and they can get in touch with me. Unfortunately, we only can take clients from Berlin. But like I said, I can use structures if somebody is not from Berlin and try to help.

JENNIFER
Thank you very much both of you for the input – that was really powerful. And yes, for sure, Jasmin, we will include you and I’m sure we will overwhelm you also because you asked for it.

Lucía we are very grateful that you also contributed. Let us know if we need to overwhelm you also and in which way.

With this, we come to the end of our program today. I am sure we will be calling you again for a continuation of this very important topic on mental health. Because it’s not possible to exhaust it in one sitting. Thank you very much.

JASMIN
Thank you for inviting us.

LUCÍA
Yeah, thank you for inviting us so I could be part of all this empowerment. I hope that we could contribute. And you are welcome.

DENISE
Thank you very much. And hopefully see you very soon.

JASMIN
And stay healthy.

DENISE
Stay healthy. Yes.

LUCÍA
Same to you. Take care.